Leavers- hope you are pleased still

  john bunyan 22:52 30 Jul 2019
Answered

The exchange rate is dreadful:

exchange rates

This will cause rises in fuel and many other things. A no deal Brexit is a disaster for so many ( just for example sheep farmers facing 40% tariffs and potential wipe out; Vauxall may move away from Ellsmere Port; many other huge problems. Gove says Government is working on the assumption of no deal; Scotland very likely to press for independence.

Not wishing to sound “cup half empty “ but do Leavers really accept that a No Deal is worth it?

Labour is now virtually a Marxist Party and Tories have been taken over by a hard right faction. The worst political situation I can remember. An election would most likely result in a hung Parliament again. I’m sure FE will say all is well etc, but I am depressed.

  john bunyan 16:51 02 Aug 2019

When the referendum was declared, as it was such a huge change in our whole constitution, a 2/3 majority should have been set, not a simple one. The 51.9% was not a very big majority. Second, we are trying to have devolved constituent nations within the U.K. and NI and Scotland voted to remain. Although it was a national referendum, it reinforced the view in particular in Scotland that they are always overruled by “Westminster “ . The result is that due to the flawed rules set out at the beginning, we have a huge problem in NI with big risks of a return to unrest, and a strong probability of a second Scottish Indy, this time with a leave vote. That would be a disaster for our defence and other matters including border control.

Although the default position is a no deal, I believe a way must be found to avoid it. The Government only have a 1 seat majority so a few Tory rebels could cause a general election. Unless Tories have a pact with the Brexit party the Leave vote will be split, and should Labour come out as a Remain party and work with the Lib Dem’s , the fat lady may not sing.

  Quickbeam 16:58 02 Aug 2019

"Don't you think remain will bring the worst case scenario as well." Yes.

"If the EU does not want to give us that then we have to go for a no deal." No we don't.

"But if the EU does not want to give us a good deal then we must leave." We have an option that we negotiated. Don't swallow the Tory party line that's setting everyone but our own Parliament up s a scapegoat.

"That is what we voted for so that is what should happen." The 'that' is most certainly not a no deal economic nonsuccess what was voted for. What was voter for has been rejected by ourselves.

So I repeat, are we so desperate that we feel we must choose the worst economic option?

  natdoor 19:32 02 Aug 2019

We are constantly told by Leavers that the people have spoken and their decision must be implemented. However, on 9.11.09 David Davis stated "If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy" And when the prediction was a Remain victory as the polls closed in the refendum, Nigel Farage demanded a another one. In my view, the case for a second referendum is proven beyond all doubt.

  alanrwood 19:56 02 Aug 2019

FE

Yes you may trot out facts as they were in 2016 but we are now in 2019 and situations have changed beyond any recognition.

I become very sad that the same old arguments about the result of a close referendum in 2016 can't be changed in 2019 by the PEOPLE.

If they continue to support a leave agenda when the full facts are known then fine I have no problem with that but to keep on trotting out the standard Brexiteer argument that we voted in 2016 to leave and that this can not be tested again when we know what the deal actually is in my mind expresses the most undemocratic attitude possible.

I am sorry but I repeat, Hard Brexiteers who want to leave at any cost (not usually to themselves) are frightened that the British electorate may have seen through their distortions of facts when they ran the 2016 referendum debate.

  Forum Editor 23:15 02 Aug 2019

"we are now in 2019 and situations have changed beyond any recognition."

I can't argue with that, but when you make a promise to the electorate to abide by the decision of the majority you have to stick to it or risk the resulting backlash. Politicians of both the major parties recognise that fact, which is why they have said that they would not entertain a re-run of the referendum.

There is however, a good deal of talk about another referendum on the terms of our leaving. I can see nothing wrong with that, provided there are terms to consider. At the moment, we are in a situation where parliament has rejected every proposal put to it. It has done so because of a belief among some MPs that they can engineer a way to cancel Brexit altogether, and at any cost - even if it means voting against their own party in the house.

We are likely to see a vote of no confidence brought by the Labour party, when Jeremy Corbyn thinks he can see a way to do it without appearing to betray the democratic decision taken by the electorate. It's a risky strategy, but he seems to be prepared to risk just about anything for a chance at grabbing power.

That, as they say is politics. We, the electorate who put these people where they are to represent us can do little else but stand back and watch events unfold when parliament returns.

  Quickbeam 03:06 03 Aug 2019

You 'forgot' to mention the other MPs that voted against the May deal to engineer a damaging no deal that wasn't campagned for to suit their own unscrupulous ends FE.

I'm sure you'll appreciate me pointing out this error. I can't believe that you want to suggest that the entire fault of being Brexit stagnanted is wholely one sided being the even handed FE that we've learned to respect.

  Forum Editor 18:11 03 Aug 2019

Quickbeam

I'm sorry, but I don't get the point you're trying to make. I didn't forget anything - I was voicing my opinions. The stagnation of the Brexit process has several root causes - I think that's pretty obvious.

  beeuuem~2 18:22 03 Aug 2019

'alanrwood 19:56 02 Aug 2019 FE

Yes you may trot out facts as they were in 2016 but we are now in 2019 and situations have changed beyond any recognition.'

The situation change very rapidly after the 1973 referendum and many who voted to remain in the ECC, including my late parents, regretted it bitterly when it became clear it was no longer an economic agreement but a political plan to have a single European state. It took 43 years before we were asked again if we wanted to be part of a political union and the answer was 'No'. Those who wish to remain in the EU are very quick to accuse the leave side of lying. It is a matter of record that Heath knew he was lying when he said there would be no loss of sovereignty, he and the government of the time knew well, had been told in no uncertain terms, that the aim was a single European state with monetary, economic and legal matters being complete controlled by Brussels.

After the way the EU, with the full cooperation of Mrs May et al, has conducted themselves in the leaving process I ca't imagine why anyone would want to stay in the EU and if, God forbid, we did what sort of influence would we ever have over the rules, regulations and laws emanating from the EU?

I fully understand why those wishing to remain in the EU endorsed Mrs May's WA. She told the EU she needed to get a withdrawal agreement through the UK parliament so the EU kindly wrote one for her, translated it from the original German, gave it to her and Mrs May said'thank you. No negotiation, no haggling. just 'Thank you'
As Mr Barnier has since stated, at no time did Mrs May even suggest that she wanted a good deal or that the UK would leave with no deal if a reasonable deal was not agreed upon. She asked for an agreement and got one.

The WA means that the UK continues to contribute large sums to the EU, we remain in in the customs union and the single market until the EU decide we can leave, if ever. While in this limbo are unable to negotiate any independent trade deals with the rest of the world. The UK agrees to adopt and fully implement in UK law any rules, regulation and laws coming from the EU in perpetuity and the highest court overseeing and ruling on all matter legal remains the ECJ. The only thing that changes from the UK remaining in the EU is that the UK has no MEP's or commissioners.

What's not to like ? I'll only be pleased when we actually have referendum result implemented and actually leave the EU, as we were assured that it would be. It would be better for the EU and the UK if an amicable, mutually satisfactory agreement could be reached. If the ongoing intransigence of the EU makes this impossible then we have to leave with no deal.

  morddwyd 19:34 03 Aug 2019

Why should I be pleased?

We haven't left.

  john bunyan 20:08 03 Aug 2019

morddwyd

We haven't left.

Do you think we actually will?

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