Islam as a belief system is totally incompatible with modern 21st century western values!

  Flak999 23:49 09 Aug 2014
Locked

Controversial enough?

Now as an atheist I am frankly baffled by all of these strange and unusual gods that nominally sane and rational people believe in. However I think Islam sticks out as a totally bizarre, controlling, medieval and frankly frightening set of beliefs.

Those of us born and bred in these islands probably came into contact with the church of England at some point in our lives, or if not them, the Catholics or Methodists or Baptists. All of these frankly quaint sects believed in the same Christian god, their ministers (if they weren't paedophiles) dispensed more or less the same brand of love thy neighbour, do unto others as you would be done by, type of homespun philosophy.

They would turn up at the church fete, take tea with the WI, judge the face painting competition at the local school, you know, be genuine all round good chaps.

It was all quite charming really!

But then came immigration, with that surge of immigration came the new religions. What had been up until then strange and unusual minorities now began to broaden out into large ghettoised sections of our large towns and cities. Tower Hamlets and Southall in London, Birmingham, Luton and Bradford all began to take on a strange and vaguely frightening air.

Strange practices, unusual clothing, demands for sharia law! An alien tide of middle eastern and south east asian origin was demanding changes in our age old customs and practices. We Brits, generally welcoming and accepting as we are, tried to make the best of it, we changed our customs to accommodate the newcomers, we printed literature in all of their languages, we allowed their families and dependants to join them and avail themselves of our health service and benefits system.

Did they integrate and assimilate as previous generations of immigrants have done? Were they grateful to their host nation for providing them with a safe place to live?

No, instead they curse us for not being like them, for not embracing their medieval thirteenth century beliefs!

We forget, coming as we do from our educated 21st century backgrounds that in the middle east as in Africa, life is cheap, almost worthless.

We criticise Israel for bombing Gaza, but don't forget the Palestinians in Gaza elected Hamas whose avowed aim is the destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews. It matters not one jot to them that a thousand Palestinian children should be killed by Israeli bombs because they will be martyrs to the Islamic cause.

Indeed they welcome it!

Why should we in the west care if the Arabs want to slaughter one another? From Iraq with ISIS, to Syria with Assad, to Libya post Gaddafi, to Afghanistan with the corrupt Hamid Karzai, to all of these countries where life means less than nothing!

Why does it mean anything to us? Why should we intervene in their tribal blood letting? They are nothing but medieval savages, they hate us because we are unbelievers and would slaughter us all without compunction.

Let them kill each other, I say! Because whilst they are so engaged they are not killing us! The time will come when we in the west will have to take unprecedented action against the followers of this belief system, and that time is not far off.

We need to take off our blinkers, consign our PC rhetoric to the dustbin and prepare ourselves for the coming fight, a fight of western civilisation culture and enlightenment against eastern mysticism theocracy and barbarity, it will be a fight for the very existence of our culture!

  Aitchbee 01:14 10 Aug 2014

I agree with most of what you are saying.

Just because we all have a common ancestry and share a common pool of human genes that doesn't mean we have to share the same enviromental conditions or behaviours of others, especially if some of those conditions or behaviours are detremental to the well-being and survival of one group over another.

  Forum Editor 08:27 10 Aug 2014

"I think Islam sticks out as a totally bizarre, controlling, medieval and frankly frightening set of beliefs."

Really? I think you need to do some homework, instead or relying - as usual - on your plethora of prejudices.

Muslim beliefs are basically not that much different from those of many other religions. They believe that God is all powerful, they believe in angels, they believe that God's word was revealed to humanity by prophets, the first of whom was Adam. Other prophets included Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus.

Muslims believe that things which happen in your life are preordained by God.

All of these beliefs are commonly encountered in other religions, including Christianity.

Where you've gone wrong is that you think the small radical Muslim minority is representative of all Muslims, and that the fanatic behaviour of these people gives a true picture of the practice of the faith. You couldn't be more wrong.

"But then came immigration, with that surge of immigration came the new religions. What had been up until then strange and unusual minorities now began to broaden out into large ghettoised sections of our large towns and cities."

Your description could very well be applied to waves of immigration that occurred on numerous occasions in our history. In Tudor and early Stuart times for instance, large numbers of Dutch and French immigrants arrived here. In those days, people from Holland and France, and their customs and beliefs seemed very strange to the English, and there were hundreds of incidents of violence and persecution. Our society changed in subtle ways, as the immigrants - and their children and chidrens' children became assimilated into the population. They adapted, and we adapted, and all was well in the end.

What delays and complicates this process is fear like yours - fear that 'things will never be the same again'. They will not be the same, but British society has never stood still. We have been adapting to change for centuries, and we will continue to do so. Dinosaurs like you will complain and gnash your teeth, but you will not stop the world becoming a smaller place. The vast majority of Muslims want what you want - the right to observe their faith and live their lives in peace and harmony with their neighbours. Not everyone can achieve that simple aim, but in this country it can be done.

  Forum Editor 08:31 10 Aug 2014

Aitchbee

"Just because we all have a common ancestry and share a common pool of human genes that doesn't mean we have to share the same enviromental conditions or behaviours of others, especially if some of those conditions or behaviours are detremental to the well-being and survival of one group over another."

I expect the indigenous people of places like Australia, Africa, and India felt like that when we came barging in, telling them they no longer ruled their own countries, and must observe our customs and laws or be punished.

  BillSers 09:44 10 Aug 2014

You got yourself broadsided there, mate. All it needs is another like-minded forum member to join in and you'll end up in the Zulu pincer-manoeuvre.

I went through a period years ago where I was searching for answers for our existence and looked at various religions. I was brought up a Christian but soon discarded that in early teens. My father was raised as a devote Catholic but when nuns used to beat him as a child he gave that up.

I thought the Hindu and Buddhist religions were quite nice philosophies but the only religion I disliked was the Islamic religion mostly because women are usually considered to be inferior to men. Me, I like the genders to be of equal importance.

It most certainly isn't a small minority whose Muslim beliefs are radical in ways our civilised society frowns on. Most Pakistan males are Sunni and are of this view and there's roughly 169,193,231 of them. Plus the opposing Muslim Shia number approximately 163,601,094 dotted around the globe who see females as second class citizens. And to add to the mixture is the fact both Islamic factions are hell-bent on killing each other.

In some Arabic countries they will stone a woman to death even if it is the male who committed the dreadful sin of adultery. That's where she's buried up to her shoulders and men stand around and gleefully chuck rocks at her until she eventually dies of shock and trauma. She was lured into the adulterous act because her husband, who has several wives, treated her like a slave and she was seeking a better life. Incidentally, an Arabs fifth wife is considered to be the slave wife so her destiny is always going to be hellish.

Then there is the honour killings of daughters by their own family members simply because because she wanted to marry a non-Muslim.

No, I think you asked a very pertinent question.

  hastelloy 10:00 10 Aug 2014

So was it right that the Spanish conquistadors (Catholics) executed any Andean people who refused to become Catholic?

Should we have left the Irish Catholics and Protestants to kill each other until one (probably Catholics as they are fewer in number) became extinct?

Or should we take a little time to get our facts right before we start spouting nonsense based on the behaviour of the minority?

FE is totally correct. This country would not be what it is without continual immigration. Not sure which race came first but it was well over 2,000 years ago. We have been changing ever since and long may we continue to do so.

  Forum Editor 10:22 10 Aug 2014

"the only religion I disliked was the Islamic religion mostly because women are usually considered to be inferior to men."

Yet in our society - the one Flak999 is so proud of - women were also considered to be inferior to men until quite recently. We had to introduce laws to stop it, and even those haven't worked - women are still being treated as inferior every day of the week.

I think what Flak999 means when he talks of "modern 21st century western values!" is his modern 21st century values - as long as everyone shares his values everything is fine. He is unable to accept that in the 21st century the world is a very different place, and it will continue to change; as it has throughout our history. What Flak999 wants is a Britain that hasn't existed for a long time, and will never exist again. He's a Luddite, and there are many like him - people who are unable or unwilling to grasp the reality of change in a modern world. They look for someone to blame for the cause of the decline they go on and on about, and at the moment it's Muslims.

The truth is, any decline has really been brought about by so-called indigenous British people. Too lazy and introverted to see the opportunities that a modern world presents, they spend their time ranting about foreigners.

  BillSers 10:49 10 Aug 2014

Yet in our society - the one Flak999 is so proud of - women were also considered to be inferior to men until quite recently. We had to introduce laws to stop it, and even those haven't worked - women are still being treated as inferior every day of the week.

And yet I'm racking my brains and I can't recall a time in recent history of our society stoning women to death, killing them if they didn't want to be forced into an arranged marriage at 12, chopping thieves hands off or holding public beatings where a woman receives 500 lashes by a hefty strong male with a copy of the Quran tucked under his arm.

We all know women are still being treated unfairly in the workplace etc. But think of this as being an 'exception' and not the 'rule'. There's a huge difference.

  BillSers 10:52 10 Aug 2014

What was that question?? The only question seems to be "Is that controversial enough?", which may well be a pertinent question in your own eyes, but simply requires a Yes/No answer.

Actually, Flak999 had issued a statement, followed by a prejudiced rant.

Yawn. Okay if you want to be pedantic: I took it to be a rhetorical question.

Rant is the word people always use when they haven't got anything better to say. Prejudiced is a word which can be used by either party so to me it serves no purpose.

  Forum Editor 11:11 10 Aug 2014

BillSers

I wouldn't (and haven't) said that in some cases women aren't subjected to violence. The point I responded to was that Muslim women are treated as inferior. I said that we (legally) treated them as such in our own society until quite recently, and illegally we still do in many instances.

You're guilty of the same lack of understanding as Flak999 when you talk of

"stoning women to death, killing them if they didn't want to be forced into an arranged marriage at 12, chopping thieves hands off or holding public beatings where a woman receives 500 lashes by a hefty strong male with a copy of the Quran tucked under his arm."

as if that was the norm in a Muslim society. It isn't - those are the actions of a fanatic minority, just as the violent force feeding of suffragettes by doctors in British prisons was instigated by a sadistic element in the government of the time. They were frightened by the prospect of women thinking for themselves, instead of their husbands doing it for them, just as the sadistic Muslim element is frightened of women who might seek to become educated and free of male oppression.

That has nothing to do with people thinking that Islam as a belief system is incompatible with 21st century values - Muslim teachers condemn the violent oppression of women, or of men, come to that. One of the core teachings of the prophet Muhammad is that you should not harm yourself or others.

As with all religious faiths, there are Muslims who are fundamentalist. They are the people who interpret basic values as they see fit, and expect others to follow or be punished. It has happened before in the Christian world, and it's happening now,in the Muslim faith.

  carver 11:30 10 Aug 2014

In the past we have had all sorts of immigration into this country and it's been strange and for some people unwelcome.

The problem now is not the immigration but the inability to integrate into our society and adapt to some of our laws.

Our laws do not fit into the Muslim belief regarding women because whether you like it or not the female in Muslim law are inferior to men and have no rights.

Our laws give women the same rights as a man, baring divorce laws (other way round) and so Muslin men are demanding they be allowed Sharia law which gives a women very few rights.

Under Sharia law to hit a wife is perfectly acceptable as long as no marks are left on the face and if you think I am wrong then ask a Muslim man, women also have little if any property rights.

We as a society are changing to give women the same rights as men and it may not be perfect but we are doing it one bit at a time and compare the 21st century to medieval England is a bit lacking in argument.

We don't see integration we see Muslim communities growing that seek to out any body who is not Muslim, every city with a Muslim population is seeing this happen and if people are concerned or voice an opinion they are shouted down as Islamaphobic , bigoted or racist because this will make the problem go away.

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