Another Malaysian Airlines 777 lost

  Al94 16:59 17 Jul 2014
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A terrible tragedy and unbelievable that Malaysian Airlines involved again.

Why are passenger aircraft flying over what is effectively a war zone with several military aircraft shot down recently?

1]: [click here

  spuds 17:50 17 Jul 2014

I am not speculating as to how, what, when about this tragedy, but I recall the number of times I and my colleagues flew between Venezuela and Jamaica and Cuban MIG,s followed us through their airspace. It didn't take all that long to realise that one split second false move or mistake by either side could have easily resulted in another air disaster.

  Forum Editor 08:07 18 Jul 2014

Expert sources do seem to be agreeing that this aircraft was hit by a Surface to Air missile. The Ukrainian government has released a recording which they say is a conversation between pro-Russian militants admitting to shooting down the plane.

If it's true, and if - as many expect - it turns out that the missile was supplied by Russian sources, there will be widespread speculation about Putin's role in it all. The likely missile would be a Russian made SA-17 Grizzly.

  BillSers 08:50 18 Jul 2014

If it's true, and if - as many expect - it turns out that the missile was supplied by Russian sources, there will be widespread speculation about Putin's role in it all. The likely missile would be a Russian made SA-17 Grizzly.

Not necessarily, not if the perps wanted no trace back to the Kremlin. They may have used another SAM.

  spuds 12:35 18 Jul 2014

Whatever the case, its just speculation at present, very similar to the other unsolved Malaysian aircraft mystery.

Personally, I am waiting for the British Governments views on this subject, and whether William Hague's replacement will have anything to say, and if so -what?.

  BillSers 13:55 18 Jul 2014

**BillSers - Where would they get another SAM from? It will not be a NATO system but almost certainly Russian built. It may have been a captured launcher only.**

You may be right. Having just seen the BBC news it seems the only system capable of striking something at 33,000 feet is the Russian launcher. It bit silly I'd have thought, unless Putin wants everyone to suspect the Kremlin as just a bit more than sabre rattling.

Blame it on the pro-Russian rebels.

Nice political ploy.

  johndrew 10:13 19 Jul 2014

Based on reports up to this morning it would appear likely that a Buk 11 missile system was used to down the aircraft. The only source of this system to Ukraine would be Russia. Whether the system was one 'captured' by rebel forces from legal Ukraine forces or supplied directly to them is unknown as is the nationality of the operators at the time it was operated.

What is known is that when European observers attempted to gain access to the crash site with a view to securing it they were opposed by Russian separatists/rebels and shots were fired.

Based evidence and actions so far, if the separatists/rebels fail to permit access to investigative teams it will compound the belief they were directly responsible for the act. It could also be that any investigation will only prove or disprove the use of a missile and not be able to identify the operators of the system at the time.

The current assertions made by various countries as to liability are not supported by definitive evidence.

It is sad that innocent travellers have been killed and their deaths dragged into a political quagmire where members of the UN accuse each other of actions resulting in such a tragedy.

  BillSers 11:20 19 Jul 2014

Latest is 38 bodies were removed from the site against international policy. They want to put a 12 mile exclusion zone around the crash.

Could the rebels really have made such a stupid mistake of shooting down a civilian plane?

  spuds 11:22 19 Jul 2014

johndrew

It is very sad when innocent traveller's are killed, but war between people and nations do not select the innocent from the guilty on who dies or not.

I have stated on this forum many times, that I have no respect whatsoever with how the UN works, because the remits often given are just not acceptable in safeguarding those that need help and protection. Its not the armed forces fault, but the politicians who make the rules and don't want to cause upset among themselves?.

Perhaps coming back to the subject of airspace, I wonder how many passenger's on aircraft actually know or realise what is happening below them, at any given time, and the possible risks involved in that. I doubt if it enters most peoples head, because they regard that they are very safe at the altitudes they fly, not taking into consideration or thought of aircraft malfunctions, which are very rare.

Going on my earlier remark of flying over Cuban airspace. On the first journey I made on that route, there was absolutely no mention that escorted action would take place,either by the airline or their agents, it was just a sheer very scary surprise when it did suddenly happen. Even when it happened there was no information from the cabin crew or pilot, but I suppose it had become second nature to them?.

Thinking back, I lost count the amount of times I flew over Vietnam and the surrounding areas, when that conflicts in the area was very active. Never once did I assume, and I guess that went for everyone else, that I would or could have been part of that conflict through a possible 'mistake'. Strange how you think about these things 'after the event' and incidents like now, tend to remind you of what might have been?.

  johndrew 14:22 19 Jul 2014

spuds

There are two points you raise which are very pertinent.

  1. The UN, regardless of personal views, is designed for peace rather than conflict even though various 'police actions' have been carried out in its name over the years. Unfortunately there are members of the UN who have specific political views and positions which makes it difficult if not impossible for them to agree on some actions (or restraint) which others would like. Regardless of the failings of the body it must be better to have a place/organisation that allows views to be expressed verbally rather than physically.

  2. The route used by the subject flight was approved internationally. Perhaps similar to those over Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq and other areas of conflict. These routes are far from arbitrary and are only approved after consideration of the conditions and risks on the ground. In this case it was considered that any aircraft above 32,000 feet AGL was safe from ground fire. The introduction of a weapons system which negated this was not only unknown but unexpected based on the intelligence available.

In common with you, I have flown over areas of conflict but I was aware of the routes and approvals in force. Having said that I was also aware that in some instances there were weapons and combat aircraft which could pose a threat if used. Your example of a flight over Cuba is little different to many instances over the Berlin air corridor when it existed. However the presence of combat aircraft may also, to some extent, depended upon the nationality/registration of your carrier. After all a carrier registered in the USA, for example, would have been unlikely to have been particularly welcome.

  BillSers 14:23 19 Jul 2014

The Ukranian defence Minister says that the pro-Russian rebels do not have the technical expertise to operate the highly sophisticated rocket launcher and that it came over the flimsily guarded border manned by Russians. If that proves to be the case then it would seem that Putin not only condones this incident he may well have sanctioned it. That would then lead to the possibility the Kremlin actually wanted to teach the West to stay out of its disputes with Ukraine by an act of war, albeit disguised as an act by the rebels.

The 38 bodies that have been removed cannot be traced by official means. Also the rebels are being as disruptive as possible for any entry to the site which has still not been cordoned off thus allowing anyone to walk off with debris.

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