What About Teaching?

  laurie53 08:19 14 Feb 2009
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Schools should provide social workers and support groups for parents.

click here

Good idea. They could do housing and meals on wheels as well, since it obviously isn't considered desirable that they just do teaching.

  Forum Editor 08:34 14 Feb 2009

providing it does not burden them with more work, but say the real problem is that staff are ill-prepared to deal with bad behaviour."

Well perhaps the teacher training colleges should wake up and realise that dealing with bad behaviour is an integral part of a teacher's job - always has been, and always will be. I'm fed up with hearing teachers moaning on and on about how hard they work, and how they don't get enough support - either from their employers, the parents, or from the community at large.

I work hard, you work hard, we all work hard (or at least most of us do), and we don't constantly whinge about how difficult it all is. Every teacher was once a pupil, and no doubt witnessed bad behaviour in the classroom - it goes with the territory. They saw at first hand how the kind of behaviour their own teachers had to deal with. How then do most of them seem to forget all about it when they choose to become teachers themselves - they knew what they were letting themselves in for, surely?

Now that I've got that off my chest I can do a little bit of an about turn and say that I can, to a degree see the logic in trying to get disfunctional parents to understand that they can't simply abdicate responsibility when it comes to their childrens behavioural problems. Real problem behaviour - and here I'm not just talking about drawing a silly picture of Miss on the blackboard - almost always has its causal roots in the home, and any initiative that seeks to address that directly is probably a good thing. I say 'probably' because its success would depend on the way it was structured, and on the cooperation of all concerned - teachers can't dodge the extra work involved and leave it to everyone else.

  carver 09:26 14 Feb 2009

Sorry to have to disagree with you but you can't just blame the teachers for the behaviour of some children who can completely disrupt a class.

This government has implemented a series of changes in the teaching methods used in schools over a number of years and it is now coming home to roost.

They now have what are laughingly called "Teacher Assistants" in Nurseries and Primary schools and for part of the day these people are the ones trying to look after your children, on their own.

These people can even take over the running of a class if the teacher is off ill for a day and some local councils are even trying to push this to 3 days to further save money before having to get support staff in to cover absence.

So now we have a bunch of children going through school being taught and educated part of the time, by people who do not know what they are doing.

Years ago you had what was then called "Nursery Nurses" who had to spend time training to do their job, now any body came come in off the street and be employed to look after your child.

These people are employed because they are cheap to hire. they have no training, no understanding in how to look after children, no training in how to communicate with the children or how to deal with problem children.

Parents also have a bigger responsibility than any teacher will ever have in promoting good behaviour but again most of the checks and chastisement available has been taken away by law, you can no longer be a firm parent because it is against the child's human rights.

I am not taking the view that teachers do not have a responsibility for tackling unruly behaviour but a lot of the checks that were in place have been taken away.

Certain groups of children can get away with just about anything they like, provided they play the racist card and the teachers are very careful about how they treat these kids.

No doubt that some one on this site will now say that I am racist for bringing this up, but it is a fact, and if you are a teacher you can not afford to be branded a racist, so they back off.

  newman35 10:58 14 Feb 2009

I remember some years ago a friend, who was a Head Teacher, telling me that the problem in education was that because every one of us has been 'to school' - ergo, we are all experts in the field.
Unlike other similar 'professions', doctors, lawyers, architects etc. the average punter will happily accept their expertise, but teaching? No, we all know how to do it (because of our own school experience!) and so we can all lay in and criticise, ad nauseum.
Well I don't envy teachers their jobs and their constant battle against disruptive neds, whose parents should be blamed. At what stage should teacher 'training' start to involve police tactics of controlling disruption, batons, CS spray, dogs....?

  robgf 11:42 14 Feb 2009

The only reason that children behaved better decades ago, was because they were frightened of the consequences of their actions.
There was the slipper, cane, detention, borstal, etc. Children were scared into line and the few uncontrollable types were shipped off to borstal, never to be seen again. The system worked very well for 99.9% of the population.
Now the caring, sharing types pander to the 0.01%, who drag an ever larger proportion of potential good kids down.

The rot had started to set in back in the seventies when I was at school. The traditional stern teacher (Sir, or Miss), was being replaced by trendy, "call me Bill" types.
I had a couple of the new type towards the end of my school career, the History teacher who wanted to be friends with everyone and used his first name and a very effeminate male music teacher.
We were normally a well behaved class, but given the chance, we messed about in History classes and used to make the music teacher burst into tears.

The more that liberal types try to "understand" kids, the deeper the hole they dig for themselves. It's quite simple, kids are untrained animals and need to be shown how to behave and be disciplined when they dont, you don't need fancy assessments, social workers etc, just use the KISS principle.

  newman35 12:18 14 Feb 2009

"kids are untrained animals and need to be shown how to behave and be disciplined when they dont"

Agree with much of what you said in your post about the reason for why we are where we are, with this problem.

I cannot see more social workers being the answer, just more forms and 'assessments' for everyone involved (and I'm sure most teachers will love that idea!!).

  carver 14:16 14 Feb 2009

Who do you think are training these new teaching assistants, some of them have not got the first idea about a classroom full of kids.

That comment of yours about Mature Adults is complete rubbish and some thing thrown about by a politician to disguise the fact that teaching is now being done on the cheap.

There are two types of teaching assistance, ones who have been doing the job for years, have the experience to supervise children and have learnt how to deal with them, then you have the new ones, straight off the street, thinks it nice to work with kids and will work for less pay.

As for that other statement about 45 years ago, that school you went to must have been a doddle, my school you had one warning only, if you didn't heed it then you were in trouble, I don't know of one child who went back for a second helping of punishment, and if you told your mom or dad you got another clip for being rude to a teacher.

Now if a teacher so much as shouts at a child they are reprimanded.

  Clapton is God 15:04 14 Feb 2009

Teachers do have an increasingly damned hard job.

They have to show children how to dress, how to eat, how to use a knife and fork, to toilet train them, how to interact with other children, how to speak English (rather than just grunt).

Oh, and they also have to teach them the 3Rs.

I speak as a School Governor with over 15 years experience at a Primary School in Sussex.

Our School has 420 pupils who speak over 30 languages amongst them. Many of them can’t yet speak English, but the School is still expected to teach them the National Curriculum!

Increasingly, more and more parents are abdicating their basic responsibilities on the premise that “the School will do that”.

The real problem is not how to teach our children but to show the parents how to be parents.

  ronalddonald 16:16 14 Feb 2009

all down to the parents who teach kids not always the teacher how ever some teachers are bloody useless. And the same goes for parents.

What happened to respect and good manners, self confidence self reliance and responsibility.

Kids learn good or bad from peer groups telly, where they hang out, they also learn from parents and teachers. Some teachers like to impose their own views like you never succeed your too dumb etc and some will say i have hope for you yet. Its sad really that some teachers cant teach confidence, and its sad if parents cant neither.

  carver 19:12 14 Feb 2009

This is only ONE instance I have seen about this

click here

If you like I'll find some more, want to add any thing else to your statement about "And your evidence for that raging generality is"

  laurie53 19:12 14 Feb 2009

As the OP may I say that my intended point was not a general criticism of schools or social work or teachers, but the postulation that schools should be responsible for providing these social workers and support groups.

While I agree these should be the responsibility of the LA, it should be the Social Work Department not the Education Department.

There are enough demands on an ever shrinking education budget already without it having to stretch to social workers.

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