hick.hack 20:34 28 Mar 2004

is this a good example for webdesign?

click here

what is your oppinion?

thanks for answers.

  Taran 20:54 28 Mar 2004

I'm not sure quite what to say since there is so little to base an opinion on. There certainly is not enough to go on to offer any really useful evaluation.

A couple of things to consider though:

The site is frames based. I don't like frames for a lot of very practical reasons including issues with search engine recognition, search engine ranking, bookmarking, browser limitations and similar.

Frames cause all kinds of very real problems and should be avoided at all costs. I don't know of any professional web designer who regularly uses frames any more and personally I haven't delivered a frames based site for about two years now.

There is one very large image on the page which blows the entire layout out of proportion and requires a huge monitor to view without horizontal scrolling. People accept vertical scrolling within reason, but expecting them to slide a page from left to right to view it and use any linked navigation structure that may be on the right hand [hidden] side of the page is a big problem.

Most professional designers are working to 1024x768 resolution but layouts should be fluid in that they should be designed to collapse and be viewable at 800x600 resolution.

Without knowing what the site is for and without some content to view it is impossible to offer anything other than very rough generalisations. I'd think carefully about whether you actually need frames and I'd certainly lose such a huge image as your layout basis, or at least resize it to display properly in mainstream resolutions.

Without more to see I can't say whether it is or is not a good design, but it does have some potential problems built in from the outset.

  Forum Editor 00:24 29 Mar 2004

is a large .Gif image - and that's far too wide (at 1005 pixels) for the average screen.

The basic idea's fine, but you need to develop it a bit more before any of us can really give an opinion.

  Ben Avery 11:54 29 Mar 2004

Doesn't Microsoft run a Frame-Based website? I'm sure that Windows Update is framed?

Not to be pedantic or anything, just in reference to your comment "I don't know of any professional web designer who regularly uses frames any more", although I will agree with the use of frames being against my favorite idea. I changed my site from framed for that very reason!


  Sir Radfordin 13:32 29 Mar 2004

You are indeed correct:

click here

For one of the elements of the frame.

If you click here and then do view/source and scroll to the bottom of the file you will see the Frameset info.

  Taran 15:57 29 Mar 2004

This is a typical example of the limitations of the printed word and the possible misunderstandings it can produce.

Yes, Microsoft do use frames.

Perhaps I should have gone into a little more detail with my above statements.

Unless your site is of considerable size {just imagine how many tens of thousands of pages Microsoft have available on theirs} then frames can work well. I don't dispute that and I also did not mean to imply that it was unprofessional to use frames when I typed those fateful words "I don't know of any professional web designer who regularly uses frames any more".

Although frames work well for MS, so could SSI [Server Side Includes], template pages populated with dynamic content, which, incidentally, is partially how the MS site works, and one or two other methods could also be employed.

Many large intranets employ frames, but more and more are moving to template pages populated by the same content a frames page would pull from a database.

I should perhaps have said, "I don't know of any professional web designer who regularly uses frames any more for general work".

I think we can all agree that the MS site is not typical in size and content. I think we can also safely assume that the MS site and the organisation in general does not suffer the budgetary limitations we mere mortals [including most of my clients] suffer from in terms of search engine indexing, monthly bandwidth use and similar problems. In fact, pretty much all the issues surrounding frames and most other things for that matter on a small to medium business or personal site do not apply to the same relative extent on a site the size of the MS site when you consider the level of backing it has.

When it comes down to brass tacks and pounds and shillings, you use the methods that are most efficient and that offer the best longevity in practical use.

Frames can offer certain advantages in managing huge sites. I can't and won't dispute that. Their disadvantages on a more modest budget far outweigh any potential advantages though, which is why most web designers no longer employ frames very often, if at all. My observations above were not purely personal: they were also rooted in practical design and delivery issues and it would be grossly unfair of me to not warn my clients of the possible problems in delivering a frames based site.

I guess I could sum it all up by saying "why build potential problems or hurdles to overcome into a site when you can use alternative methods on a far lower budget to deliver your content".

There are pros and cons to all design methods and no single site design meets all criteria in full, but for general use and certainly on smaller sites I see no compelling or convincing argument in favour of frames layouts at all. Quite the reverse in fact.

Give me a huge budget to work with and lots of content to deliver and I'll consider populating a frames site with content, but I'm far more likely in most cases to go with template pages that have no frames in sight, where common elements are built into the template or referenced as includes.

Use frames if you like, or not as the case may be. I was quoting from experience and should probably have gone into greater detail. Either way, I still don't know of any professional designer who regularly uses frames an more.


  PurplePenny 17:57 29 Mar 2004

I want the curves to go somewhere, they feel unfinished, just hanging there. The lower arcs need to join up with something too. Aside from that I do like the curves, the web is full of straight lines so they make a nice change.


  joelmb 18:48 30 Mar 2004

Just wondering, why have you got a 5 second refresh on it?

  Ben Avery 13:10 31 Mar 2004

Point very well made! I wouldn't dare to question a man of your web knowledge and agree wholehearteldy with your comments.

Regarding the site in question, I too like the "Idea" but would prefer to see it done with a smaller scale and if need be smaller text to enable what will likely the "navigation buttons" at some point, to fit on a screen with a 800x600 resolution.

Also, I'd personally set up the top frame instead as a table and save it as a new template once the links are created and before any content is added to what is currently the "MainFrame". This will alleviate any need for frames, which as Taran rightly says are not necessary and even a likely flaw in an otherwise good design idea.

Get rid of the 5 second refresh too, it's most annoying even when you are just looking at the images at the top!

The Images definately want to be more uniform in size and shape. Equal sizes are more pleasing on the eye and the "Termine" one is way off. May be worthwhile shrinking you text size down enough to make them fit comfortably into equal curves but not making the longer ones cramped in the process.

Otherwise, the idea is neat. I like the use of colour and the grey fadeouts on the button. Very professional looking. Have a play and be sure to post back with any changes!


  tomleady 13:52 31 Mar 2004

if he does return for his returned comments, then the 5 second refresh needs to go straight away!

  tomleady 13:52 31 Mar 2004

hick.hack could be a she


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