Using Frames or Tables?

  wiz33 10:29 27 Aug 2003

I have been designing my company's web site and I would like to ask the following?

What are the advantages or dissadvandages in using FRAMES OR TABLES?

Which is the best way to design my pages so to be desplayed correctly with the various screen resolutions?

At the moment I am using Frames of which one is the banner (Static) the other is the Navigation (Static) and the middle one (the larger proportion of the screen) where or the links are desplayed. click here.

I use flash and javascripts and my web editor is NAMO 5.

I was told that you can put a code in nyour index.html page where the screen size and version of IE is reconised and the site adjusts accordingly for best viewing?

Can anybody offer some advise please>


  SheffieldSpy 12:04 27 Aug 2003

If you use frames, limit it to a maximum of 3 or 4. Otherwise the webpage may look a mess at low resolutions.

I personally find it useful to just use tables, because they are more flexible and are understood by a wider range of web browsers.

  steven_frost 19:14 27 Aug 2003

Table is the way to go most people don't like them and search engines hate them

  Forum Editor 20:06 27 Aug 2003

and with a little more work it can be a very nice site.

My personal preference is for tables every time - they are more versatile, and don't have the browser issues associated with frames.

I can see no reference to a declaration of your privacy policy, and this is essential on a site where you are asking people to provide you with personal data. If you are going to process the data - and I assume that you are, if you will subsequently use it to make booking arrangements with third parties - you have an obligation to register as a data controller with the UK Information Commissioner. Let me know if you need more information on this.

Some of your images are slightly over-compressed, and the quality has suffered. On a holiday site the one thing you want is crisp, clear images, and I think you should work on yours again - make the file sizes slightly bigger, and accept the slight loading speed penalty.

  wiz33 21:15 27 Aug 2003

Thank very much for your advise and comments so far.

I am aware that by using tables I have better control of the display but in my case apart from the intro page and the statement at the bottom about ATOL (which is compulsory) I use the 3 frames on the Main page for easy Navigation and also it helps me to keep the file size (that changes) small.

Still not had a comprehensive for using tables or Frames which of the 2 displays better on the various resolutions?.

I have designed the site on 1024 x 768 for best display and I ignore the NETSCAPE display as I read is a very small proportion.

The search engines problem is not that critical for us as we will advertise the site on Teletext and newspapers.

I would appreciate if the editor could let me have some more information about the Privacy policy and By the way my company is acting as Principal and we donot disclose any other details of our clients to any other company apart of the arrivals lists.

Thank you all

  Forum Editor 23:12 27 Aug 2003

is as follows:-

1. Create a new page - call it privacy.html or anything else that you like.

2. On eform.html put the following words just under the line that starts "one of our travel consultants..........."

Before completing the form please read our data privacy policy - CLICK HERE (make the words CLICK HERE a hyperlink to the new page).

3. On the new page, write a paragraph along these lines:

At Airsun holidays we understand the importance of safeguarding your personal data. The information you provide in the course of completing our enquiry form will not under any circumstances be sold, shared, or otherwise divulged to a third party - in whole or in part - without your prior consent, unless we are required to do so by law.
You may, at any time request a copy of the information we hold about you, and may ask for your details to be amended if necessary. To see a copy of your personal information please contact us by email.

  The Paul 01:02 28 Aug 2003

On your "main.html" page - to read the info (which I do want to read) I have to continually scroll horizontally. I dont mind scrolling vertically, this is normal I guess, but horizontally is a tiny bit frustrating.

I do like the site though. As FE mentioned, the images are important. This is probably a bit naff, but why not have some of the really good images enlarge if the viewer wants to see closer. Just a thought. 01:18 28 Aug 2003

The sideways scrolling is irritating. That is why I made my sites 770 pixels wide. They fit an 500 x 600 window plus the scrollbar. I rarely view in full screen.

Nice site though. Cheers, Whiz... 01:19 28 Aug 2003

Above should read read 800 x 600

  Talented Monkey 02:23 28 Aug 2003

Glad to see everyone has advised to drop frames. They are now in design terms a thing of the past.

Screen Resolution Size. Majority of people still use 800x600. I advise people to do what I do and create a web page primarily for this size. Use all width setting as percentages rather than pixels, that way people viewing the page in a higher resolution will see a full width. One thing to bear in mind is the number of images you are placing across the page. You should not really exceed 700 pixels for total combined width of your images. If you are placing text next to or In between the images then you should reduce this width to at least 500 pixels depending on how much text you have. If the image is important you can always create the image as a link to bring up a full size image.

Couple more points I would like to make, is the entry page really necessary, sure the pictures look interesting and give impression of what the site is, but people have already come to your site, they know what it is and having an extra click isn?t really needed, besides they now have to sit and wait for a whopping 135KB to load not much for broadband but most people still use dial up and with dial up speeds being more like 20-30kb this page will take nearly 10 seconds to load far too long. Also if you do intend to keep this entry page then at least make the centre image a click able link to enter the site and increase the CLICK TO ENTER People want to see the main contents and menu as soon as they get the first page and not have to work out how to get there, which is what your page currently does.

Next point I want to make is the menu bar. looks fine on appearance, although the background highlights when you mouse over it, you cant actually click it as link until you go over the text , this is mainly down to the JavaScript used to create it.

Personally I think that all JavaScript and Flash navigation bars should not be used! It is quite simple to use style sheets to produce the same infect, indeed with a little thought you can create 3D buttons which appear to depress when you click them.. I have in no time created a style sheet to produce a similar effect as your buttons, click here using this method this will also help cut down the time the page loads and will be available to all visitors. A small but gradually growing number of people disable JavaScript, and do not have Flash, if these people came to your site then how would they navigate?

This may sound rather daunting, but its not particularly that hard, and to those people who do not wish to or cannot understand any programming , I think im right in saying that the latest version of Dreamweaver supports Style Sheets I never even used Front Page (or Dreamweaver) but am I right in assuming FrontPage can be used to incorporate style sheets??

This was going to just be a few lines, but I hope I have given you a better insight. I maybe blunt to the point and can be even brutal, but hopefully never rude or nasty.
Honesty is the best policy!

  wiz33 08:16 28 Aug 2003

What a pleasant surprise this morning. So many useful replies and advise. Thank you everybody.

By the way Editor I have in the booking conditions a paragraph regarding the Privacy policy, which now I am going to make a link to open on a new window page from a link on the e-form. Thank you for the advise.

Special thanks to Talented Monkey for his comprehensive advise and more importantly for creating the Nav Menu for me. Its excelent....I will make just only a small change to the rollover colour to RED folloing the LOGO colour scheme. That is what I have tried to keep through the site.

As I have told you I use NAMO 5 to create the site and used its Java script drop down Menu But I was not Happy with the Click....My son had pointed out the mistake too.

I used Swish to create our Logo and the ATOL for its vector capability. I think a lot of people use IE6 and have no problem in viewing them.

I will take off the intro page and go straight into the MAIN page.......I will find a space to Put the ATOL Compulsory statement somewhere in the bottom........

Talented Monkey I have no idea how to write HTML....and if you don't mind I will e-mail you directly asking a couple of more question.....thank you in advance.

I will appreciate if the editor or anybody else can e-mail me and list the pictures they think is over compressed...Thank you

I will leave my question still open and wait to see if any more people would like to comment.

I hope by this afternoon to make the changes to the Main page.....and if uploaded succesfully then I will continue with the rest later..... I have till the 1st November to get it right.

Finally when I will make all my changes I will come back and ask you for your opinion again, as I would like to make our site to be a nice one and looks that I have found a good place and people to give my advise.

By the way I take all your comments as a positive advise and I prefer that you are brutal with them. That way I will create an excellent site.

Thank you all for your time and kind advise.


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